<head><!-- BaNnErBlUrFlE-HeAdEr-start -->
<style>
  #pfptBannerwp7sshy { all: revert !important; display: block !important; 
    visibility: visible !important; opacity: 1 !important; 
    background-color: #D0D8DC !important; 
    max-width: none !important; max-height: none !important }
  .pfptPrimaryButtonwp7sshy:hover, .pfptPrimaryButtonwp7sshy:focus {
    background-color: #b4c1c7 !important; }
  .pfptPrimaryButtonwp7sshy:active {
    background-color: #90a4ae !important; }
</style>

<!-- BaNnErBlUrFlE-HeAdEr-end -->
</head><!-- BaNnErBlUrFlE-BoDy-start -->
<!-- Preheader Text : BEGIN -->
<div style="display:none !important;display:none;visibility:hidden;mso-hide:all;font-size:1px;color:#ffffff;line-height:1px;height:0px;max-height:0px;opacity:0;overflow:hidden;">
 On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 8: 23 AM Eric Chamberland <Eric. Chamberland@ giref. ulaval. ca> wrote: Hi Matthew, we have our own format that uses MPI I/O for the initial read, then we would like to do almost exactly what we do in ex47. c (https: //petsc. org/main/src/dm/impls/plex/tests/ex47. c. html)
</div>
<!-- Preheader Text : END -->

<!-- Email Banner : BEGIN -->
<div style="display:none !important;display:none;visibility:hidden;mso-hide:all;font-size:1px;color:#ffffff;line-height:1px;height:0px;max-height:0px;opacity:0;overflow:hidden;">ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart</div>

<!--[if ((ie)|(mso))]>
  <table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%" style="padding: 16px 0px 16px 0px; direction: ltr" ><tr><td>
    <table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="padding: 0px 10px 5px 6px; width: 100%; border-radius:4px; border-top:4px solid #90a4ae;background-color:#D0D8DC;"><tr><td valign="top">
      <table align="left" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="padding: 4px 8px 4px 8px">
        <tr><td style="color:#000000; font-family: 'Arial', sans-serif; font-weight:bold; font-size:14px; direction: ltr">
          This Message Is From an External Sender
        </td></tr>
        <tr><td style="color:#000000; font-weight:normal; font-family: 'Arial', sans-serif; font-size:12px; direction: ltr">
          This message came from outside your organization.
        </td></tr>

      </table>

    </td></tr></table>
  </td></tr></table>
<![endif]-->

<![if !((ie)|(mso))]>
  <div dir="ltr"  id="pfptBannerwp7sshy" style="all: revert !important; display:block !important; text-align: left !important; margin:16px 0px 16px 0px !important; padding:8px 16px 8px 16px !important; border-radius: 4px !important; min-width: 200px !important; background-color: #D0D8DC !important; background-color: #D0D8DC; border-top: 4px solid #90a4ae !important; border-top: 4px solid #90a4ae;">
    <div id="pfptBannerwp7sshy" style="all: unset !important; float:left !important; display:block !important; margin: 0px 0px 1px 0px !important; max-width: 600px !important;">
      <div id="pfptBannerwp7sshy" style="all: unset !important; display:block !important; visibility: visible !important; background-color: #D0D8DC !important; color:#000000 !important; color:#000000; font-family: 'Arial', sans-serif !important; font-family: 'Arial', sans-serif; font-weight:bold !important; font-weight:bold; font-size:14px !important; line-height:18px !important; line-height:18px">
        This Message Is From an External Sender
      </div>
      <div id="pfptBannerwp7sshy" style="all: unset !important; display:block !important; visibility: visible !important; background-color: #D0D8DC !important; color:#000000 !important; color:#000000; font-weight:normal; font-family: 'Arial', sans-serif !important; font-family: 'Arial', sans-serif; font-size:12px !important; line-height:18px !important; line-height:18px; margin-top:2px !important;">
This message came from outside your organization.
      </div>

    </div>

    <div style="clear: both !important; display: block !important; visibility: hidden !important; line-height: 0 !important; font-size: 0.01px !important; height: 0px"> </div>
  </div>
<![endif]>

<div style="display:none !important;display:none;visibility:hidden;mso-hide:all;font-size:1px;color:#ffffff;line-height:1px;height:0px;max-height:0px;opacity:0;overflow:hidden;">ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd</div>
<!-- Email Banner : END -->

<!-- BaNnErBlUrFlE-BoDy-end -->
<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 8:23 AM Eric Chamberland <<a href="mailto:Eric.Chamberland@giref.ulaval.ca">Eric.Chamberland@giref.ulaval.ca</a>> wrote:<br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>

  
    
  
  <div>
    <p>Hi Matthew,</p>
    <p>we have our own format that uses MPI I/O for the initial read,
      then we would like to do almost exactly what we do in ex47.c
      (<a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://petsc.org/main/src/dm/impls/plex/tests/ex47.c.html__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!aHeMEPfb0Meog5f2a3LiP86hnFxzuIQvMnwh6xTVli7pOyTG58-uCFxfN1vPwH43kT7LT5MKKPc7W06sEuZH$" target="_blank">https://petsc.org/main/src/dm/impls/plex/tests/ex47.c.html</a>)
      excepted the very beginning of the program that will read (MPI
      I/O) from the disk.  Then, always in parallel:<br>
    </p>
    <p>1- Populate a DMPlex with multiple element types (with a variant
      of DMPlexBuildFromCellListParallel ? do you have an example of
      this?)<br>
    </p>
    <p>2- Call partitioning (DMPlexDistribute)</p>
    <p>3- Compute overlap (DMPlexDistributeOverlap)</p>
    <p>4- Also compute the corresponding mapping between original
      element numbers and partitonned+overlap elements (
      DMPlexNaturalToGlobalBegin/End)<br>
    </p>
    <p>The main point here here is overlap computation.  And the big
      challenge is that we must always rely on the fact that never,
      ever, any node read all the mesh: all nodes have only a small part
      of it at the beginning then we want parallel partitioning and
      overlapping computation...</p>
    <p>It is now working fine for a mesh with a single type of element,
      but if we can modify ex47.c with an example of a mixed element
      types that will achieve what we would like to do!<br>
    </p>
    <p></p></div></blockquote><div>We can do that. We only need to change step 1. I will put it on my TODO list. My thinking is the same as Vaclav, namely to replace numCorners with a PetscSection describing the cells[] array. Will that work for you?</div><div><br></div><div>  Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>     Matt</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><p>Thanks,</p>
    <p>Eric</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div>On 2024-07-31 22:09, Matthew Knepley
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div dir="ltr">On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 4:16 PM Eric Chamberland
          <<a href="mailto:Eric.Chamberland@giref.ulaval.ca" target="_blank">Eric.Chamberland@giref.ulaval.ca</a>>
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div>
              <p>Hi Vaclav,</p>
              <p>Okay, I am coming back with this question after some
                time... ;)</p>
              <p>I am just wondering if it is now possible to call
                DMPlexBuildFromCellListParallel or something else, to
                build a mesh that combine different element types into a
                single DMPlex (in parallel of course) ?</p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div>1) Meshes with different cell types are fully functional,
            and some applications have been using them for a while now.</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>2) The Firedrake I/O methods support these hybrid
            meshes. </div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>3) You can, for example, read in a GMsh or ExodusII file
            with different cell types.</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>However, there is no direct interface like
            DMPlexBuildFromCellListParallel(). If you plan on creating
            meshes by hand, I can build that for you.</div>
          <div>No one so far has wanted that. Rather they want to read
            in a mesh in some format, or alter a base mesh by inserting
            other cell types.</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>So, what is the motivating use case?</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>  Thanks,</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>     Matt</div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div>
              <p>Thanks,</p>
              <p>Eric<br>
              </p>
              <div>On 2021-09-23 11:30, Hapla Vaclav wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite"> Note there will soon be a
                generalization of DMPlexBuildFromCellListParallel()
                around, as a side product of our current collaborative
                efforts with Firedrake guys. It will take a PetscSection
                instead of relying on the blocksize [which is indeed
                always constant for the given dataset]. Stay tuned.
                <div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://gitlab.com/petsc/petsc/-/merge_requests/4350__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!aHeMEPfb0Meog5f2a3LiP86hnFxzuIQvMnwh6xTVli7pOyTG58-uCFxfN1vPwH43kT7LT5MKKPc7W_UAR2Yb$" target="_blank">https://gitlab.com/petsc/petsc/-/merge_requests/4350</a></div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Thanks,</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Vaclav</div>
                  <div>
                    <div><br>
                      <blockquote type="cite">
                        <div>On 23 Sep 2021, at 16:53, Eric Chamberland
                          <<a href="mailto:Eric.Chamberland@giref.ulaval.ca" target="_blank">Eric.Chamberland@giref.ulaval.ca</a>>
                          wrote:</div>
                        <br>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <p>Hi,</p>
                            <p>oh, that's a great news!</p>
                            <p>In our case we have our home-made
                              file-format, invariant to the number of
                              processes (thanks to MPI_File_set_view),
                              that uses collective, asynchronous MPI I/O
                              native calls for unstructured hybrid
                              meshes and fields .</p>
                            <p>So our needs are not for reading meshes
                              but only to fill an hybrid DMPlex with
                              DMPlexBuildFromCellListParallel (or
                              something else to come?)... to exploit
                              petsc partitioners and parallel overlap
                              computation...<br>
                            </p>
                            <p>Thanks for the follow-up! :)<br>
                            </p>
                            <p>Eric<br>
                            </p>
                            <p><br>
                            </p>
                            <div>On 2021-09-22 7:20 a.m., Matthew
                              Knepley wrote:<br>
                            </div>
                            <blockquote type="cite">
                              <div dir="ltr">
                                <div dir="ltr">On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at
                                  3:04 AM Karin&NiKo <<a href="mailto:niko.karin@gmail.com" target="_blank">niko.karin@gmail.com</a>>
                                  wrote:<br>
                                </div>
                                <div class="gmail_quote">
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div dir="ltr">Dear Matthew,
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>This is great news!</div>
                                      <div>For my part, I would be
                                        mostly interested in the
                                        parallel input interface. Sorry
                                        for that... </div>
                                      <div>Indeed, in our application, 
                                        we already have a parallel mesh
                                        data structure that supports
                                        hybrid meshes with parallel I/O
                                        and distribution (based on the
                                        MED format). We would like to
                                        use a DMPlex to make parallel
                                        mesh adaptation.</div>
                                      <div> As a matter of fact, all our
                                        meshes are in the MED format. We
                                        could also contribute to extend
                                        the interface of DMPlex with MED
                                        (if you consider it could be
                                        usefull).</div>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>An MED interface does exist. I
                                    stopped using it for two reasons:</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>  1) The code was not portable
                                    and the build was failing on
                                    different architectures. I had to
                                    manually fix it.</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>  2) The boundary markers did not
                                    provide global information, so that
                                    parallel reading was much harder.</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>Feel free to update my MED reader
                                    to a better design.</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>  Thanks,</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>     Matt</div>
                                  <div> </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div dir="ltr">
                                      <div>Best regards,</div>
                                      <div>Nicolas</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                    <br>
                                    <div class="gmail_quote">
                                      <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le mar.
                                        21 sept. 2021 à 21:56, Matthew
                                        Knepley <<a href="mailto:knepley@gmail.com" target="_blank">knepley@gmail.com</a>>
                                        a écrit :<br>
                                      </div>
                                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                        <div dir="ltr">
                                          <div dir="ltr">On Tue, Sep 21,
                                            2021 at 10:31 AM
                                            Karin&NiKo <<a href="mailto:niko.karin@gmail.com" target="_blank">niko.karin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="gmail_quote">
                                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                              <div dir="ltr">Dear Eric,
                                                dear Matthew,
                                                <div><br>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>I share Eric's
                                                  desire to be able to
                                                  manipulate meshes
                                                  composed of different
                                                  types of elements in a
                                                  PETSc's DMPlex. </div>
                                                <div>Since this
                                                  discussion, is there
                                                  anything new on this
                                                  feature for the
                                                  DMPlex object or am I
                                                  missing something?</div>
                                              </div>
                                            </blockquote>
                                            <div><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>Thanks for finding
                                              this!</div>
                                            <div><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>Okay, I did a rewrite
                                              of the Plex internals this
                                              summer. It should now be
                                              possible to interpolate a
                                              mesh with any</div>
                                            <div>number of cell types,
                                              partition it, redistribute
                                              it, and many other
                                              manipulations.</div>
                                            <div><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>You can read in some
                                              formats that support
                                              hybrid meshes. If you let
                                              me know how you plan to
                                              read it in, we can make it
                                              work.</div>
                                            <div>Right now, I don't want
                                              to make input interfaces
                                              that no one will ever use.
                                              We have a project, joint
                                              with Firedrake, to
                                              finalize</div>
                                            <div>parallel I/O. This will
                                              make parallel reading and
                                              writing for checkpointing
                                              possible, supporting
                                              topology, geometry, fields
                                              and</div>
                                            <div>layouts, for many
                                              meshes in one HDF5 file. I
                                              think we will finish in
                                              November.</div>
                                            <div><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>  Thanks,</div>
                                            <div><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>     Matt</div>
                                            <div> </div>
                                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                              <div dir="ltr">
                                                <div>Thanks,</div>
                                                <div>Nicolas</div>
                                              </div>
                                              <br>
                                              <div class="gmail_quote">
                                                <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le mer.
                                                  21 juil. 2021 à 04:25,
                                                  Eric Chamberland <<a href="mailto:Eric.Chamberland@giref.ulaval.ca" target="_blank">Eric.Chamberland@giref.ulaval.ca</a>>
                                                  a écrit :<br>
                                                </div>
                                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                                  <div>
                                                    <p>Hi,<br>
                                                    </p>
                                                    <div>On 2021-07-14
                                                      3:14 p.m., Matthew
                                                      Knepley wrote:<br>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <blockquote type="cite">
                                                      <div dir="ltr">
                                                        <div dir="ltr">On
                                                          Wed, Jul 14,
                                                          2021 at 1:25
                                                          PM Eric
                                                          Chamberland
                                                          <<a href="mailto:Eric.Chamberland@giref.ulaval.ca" target="_blank">Eric.Chamberland@giref.ulaval.ca</a>>
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div class="gmail_quote">
                                                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                                          Hi,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          while playing
                                                          with
                                                          DMPlexBuildFromCellListParallel,
                                                          I noticed we
                                                          have to <br>
                                                          specify
                                                          "numCorners"
                                                          which is a
                                                          fixed value,
                                                          then gives a
                                                          fixed number <br>
                                                          of nodes for a
                                                          series of
                                                          elements.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          How can I then
                                                          add, for
                                                          example,
                                                          triangles and
                                                          quadrangles
                                                          into a DMPlex?<br>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>You can't
                                                          with that
                                                          function. It
                                                          would be much
                                                          mich more
                                                          complicated if
                                                          you could, and
                                                          I am not sure</div>
                                                          <div>it is
                                                          worth it for
                                                          that function.
                                                          The reason is
                                                          that you would
                                                          need index
                                                          information to
                                                          offset into
                                                          the</div>
                                                          <div>connectivity
                                                          list, and that
                                                          would need to
                                                          be replicated
                                                          to some extent
                                                          so that all
                                                          processes know
                                                          what</div>
                                                          <div>the
                                                          others are
                                                          doing.
                                                          Possible, but
                                                          complicated.</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Maybe I
                                                          can help
                                                          suggest
                                                          something for
                                                          what you are
                                                          trying to do?</div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </blockquote>
                                                    <p>Yes: we are
                                                      trying to
                                                      partition our
                                                      parallel mesh with
                                                      PETSc functions. 
                                                      The mesh has been
                                                      read in parallel
                                                      so each process
                                                      owns a part of it,
                                                      but we have to
                                                      manage mixed
                                                      elements types.</p>
                                                    <p>When we directly
                                                      use
                                                      ParMETIS_V3_PartMeshKway,
                                                      we give two arrays
                                                      to describe the
                                                      elements which
                                                      allows mixed
                                                      elements.</p>
                                                    <p>So, how would I
                                                      read my mixed mesh
                                                      in parallel and
                                                      give it to PETSc
                                                      DMPlex so I can
                                                      use a
                                                      PetscPartitioner
                                                      with
                                                      DMPlexDistribute ?</p>
                                                    <p>A second goal we
                                                      have is to use
                                                      PETSc to compute
                                                      the overlap, which
                                                      is something I
                                                      can't find in
                                                      PARMetis (and any
                                                      other
                                                      partitionning
                                                      library?)</p>
                                                    <p>Thanks,</p>
                                                    <p>Eric<br>
                                                    </p>
                                                    <p><br>
                                                    </p>
                                                    <blockquote type="cite">
                                                      <div dir="ltr">
                                                        <div class="gmail_quote">
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>  Thanks,</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>     
                                                          Matt</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                                          Thanks,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Eric<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          -- <br>
                                                          Eric
                                                          Chamberland,
                                                          ing., M. Ing<br>
                                                          Professionnel
                                                          de recherche<br>
GIREF/Université Laval<br>
                                                          (418) 656-2131
                                                          poste 41 22 42<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <br clear="all">
                                                        <div><br>
                                                        </div>
                                                        -- <br>
                                                        <div dir="ltr">
                                                          <div dir="ltr">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div dir="ltr">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div dir="ltr">
                                                          <div>What most
                                                          experimenters
                                                          take for
                                                          granted before
                                                          they begin
                                                          their
                                                          experiments is
                                                          infinitely
                                                          more
                                                          interesting
                                                          than any
                                                          results to
                                                          which their
                                                          experiments
                                                          lead.<br>
                                                          -- Norbert
                                                          Wiener</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!aHeMEPfb0Meog5f2a3LiP86hnFxzuIQvMnwh6xTVli7pOyTG58-uCFxfN1vPwH43kT7LT5MKKPc7W4OhwXgr$" target="_blank">https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~knepley/</a><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </blockquote>
                                                    <pre cols="72">-- 
Eric Chamberland, ing., M. Ing
Professionnel de recherche
GIREF/Université Laval
(418) 656-2131 poste 41 22 42</pre>
                                                  </div>
                                                </blockquote>
                                              </div>
                                            </blockquote>
                                          </div>
                                          <br clear="all">
                                          <div><br>
                                          </div>
                                          -- <br>
                                          <div dir="ltr">
                                            <div dir="ltr">
                                              <div>
                                                <div dir="ltr">
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div dir="ltr">
                                                      <div>What most
                                                        experimenters
                                                        take for granted
                                                        before they
                                                        begin their
                                                        experiments is
                                                        infinitely more
                                                        interesting than
                                                        any results to
                                                        which their
                                                        experiments
                                                        lead.<br>
                                                        -- Norbert
                                                        Wiener</div>
                                                      <div><br>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!aHeMEPfb0Meog5f2a3LiP86hnFxzuIQvMnwh6xTVli7pOyTG58-uCFxfN1vPwH43kT7LT5MKKPc7W4OhwXgr$" target="_blank">https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~knepley/</a><br>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                </div>
                                <br clear="all">
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                -- <br>
                                <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
                                  <div dir="ltr">
                                    <div>
                                      <div dir="ltr">
                                        <div>
                                          <div dir="ltr">
                                            <div>What most experimenters
                                              take for granted before
                                              they begin their
                                              experiments is infinitely
                                              more interesting than any
                                              results to which their
                                              experiments lead.<br>
                                              -- Norbert Wiener</div>
                                            <div><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!aHeMEPfb0Meog5f2a3LiP86hnFxzuIQvMnwh6xTVli7pOyTG58-uCFxfN1vPwH43kT7LT5MKKPc7W4OhwXgr$" target="_blank">https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~knepley/</a><br>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <pre cols="72">-- 
Eric Chamberland, ing., M. Ing
Professionnel de recherche
GIREF/Université Laval
(418) 656-2131 poste 41 22 42</pre>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <br>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <pre cols="72">-- 
Eric Chamberland, ing., M. Ing
Professionnel de recherche
GIREF/Université Laval
(418) 656-2131 poste 41 22 42</pre>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br clear="all">
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div>
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div>
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div>What most experimenters take for granted before
                      they begin their experiments is infinitely more
                      interesting than any results to which their
                      experiments lead.<br>
                      -- Norbert Wiener</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!aHeMEPfb0Meog5f2a3LiP86hnFxzuIQvMnwh6xTVli7pOyTG58-uCFxfN1vPwH43kT7LT5MKKPc7W4OhwXgr$" target="_blank">https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~knepley/</a><br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <pre cols="72">-- 
Eric Chamberland, ing., M. Ing
Professionnel de recherche
GIREF/Université Laval
(418) 656-2131 poste 41 22 42</pre>
  </div>

</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>What most experimenters take for granted before they begin their experiments is infinitely more interesting than any results to which their experiments lead.<br>-- Norbert Wiener</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!aHeMEPfb0Meog5f2a3LiP86hnFxzuIQvMnwh6xTVli7pOyTG58-uCFxfN1vPwH43kT7LT5MKKPc7W4OhwXgr$" target="_blank">https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~knepley/</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>