hi tom and wenjun, i am extremely interested in these issues and have been trying to move in these directions but there is a lot of resistance and obstacles. as tom mentioned, getting dedicated space is not easy. a multipurpose room, as our node is, is not easily seen as a persistent space, since it has to be turned on and off. however, other kinds of spaces are possible, thoug spaces, but have encountered various kinds of resistance (social, political, economic). i think, however, that these public spaces would be used as informal, serendipitious connections to other public spaces with similar users (e.g, students to students). I am trying to set this up between campus points and then hopefully, between campuses of different schools. the other kind of space is more personal, the desktop, or can be. to this end i have tried to setup an always on type of venue for like-minded users, specifically, those interested in digital video and also those who manage research computing organizations. while i have found interest in this, so far few have had the time to actually take the necessary steps to set this up, even though it's not much (a PIG would be sufficient). i think for my part, having a "lobby" of my colleagues always being there (potentially) would be a great way for me to brainstorm, get a reality check, etc. a consideration however is that it has to be fairly small and intimate. i can't really relate to a hundred strangers but i can develop a relationship with 6 or 12 or even maybe a pool or 20 people that i get to know. so, there has to be a fairly tight, cohesive, purpose to the group. so far, i have had one colleague that shares this concept with me and we have shared a common venue for several months. our connection is always on, audio listening is always on, so we can attract each other's attention when desired. often, days might go by with no interaction except we see each other informally any time we're at our desks. when we do talk, it's friendly, casual, and professional depending on the situation. i'd like to extend this to a slightly larger group but it does take a certain acceptance (trust? comfort?). an independent but important factor is quality. while current AG video quality is usable, i think that more realistic video would make this concept more attractive, especially in public venues, where the image really has to be life sized and of the highest quality. i'm currently experimenting with streaming DV video (working out the multicast and bandwidth hogging issues--it uses about 30Mbps per video stream) and it certainly has high impact on those who see it next to H.261 video. i'd love to get additional participants interested in pursuing both the high quality video streams as well as peristent venues based on specific interests. -gurcharan the following persistent spaces are usually always on: high quality DV mulitcast stream (requires client from //http://www.sfc.wide.ad.jp/DVTS/software) 233.42.3.100 my personal space (using vic and rat): 233.42.3.3/3000 video; 233.42.3.3/4000 audio =========================== Gurcharan S. Khanna Associate Director Research Computing Dartmouth College gkhanna@dartmouth.edu office: 603-646-1644 http://research.dartmouth.edu/ http://www.dartmouth.edu/~rc http://www.dartmouth.edu/~gkhanna --- Tom Coffin wrote: hi Wenjun You certainly raise an intersting topic. One which I too am very interested in. From my perspective, the persistant nature of this tool has two main parts. the first is it needs to be "on". The second it needs to be used. The first "being on" is dependant on operators maintaining the equipment so that it is persistantly functioning - At ACCESS we have many nodes and have all systems running but with the audio muted. At any time you can come to our venue (ACCESS DC) and see what's happening. This sounds easy, but it does take some effort and engangement to be constantly monitoring the systems. The second "using it" is a bit trickier because it also depends upon the consciousness of the people working in and around these nodes. Persistant presence between sites is a new paradigm and it will take some time for it to become a comfortable modality. But, with time (given that the equipment is continuously maintained) people will start to interact spontaneously. As an operator monitoring and trying to maintain a persistant environment I have had many spontaneous and informal communications but for the most part those still revolve around scheduled events or the preperation of scheduled events. The deployment of personal interface machines will help awarness of the persistant capability of this tool. Along with deployment I have encouraged the people who receive these machines to keep them "on" all the time - Which they do, but they still rarely use them. I think this is because many of their colleagues still do not have these systems on their desktop. That should change as these systems become more common. _____________________________________________ At 09:29 AM 3/12/2003 -0600, Wenjun Liu wrote: >Hi, > >My name is Wenjun. I am the node operator for The University of Chicago >Hospital node and a guest graduate student of Futures Lab at Argonne. >During my one and half years of node operating, I got many questions >concerning AG use and still don't have satisfactory answers to some of >those questions by myself. Reading the new AG-USERS mailing list, I >realized that there are many experienced AG users and developers out there >in the large community of AG. I believe that some of you may help me with >those questions. > >I understand that AG is supposed to be a persistent space that supports >both formal and informal communications. I can see how persistence works >in MUD or mailing list but hardly see persistence works in AG. Yes, there >is this virtual venue metaphor and Access Grid Lobby is open 24/7 with >many nodes always parked there, some with video of empty rooms, some with >blue screens. I hardly saw anyone uses this persistent space in a >non-trivial way, that is, really gets something communicated besides empty >room videos and "Do you hear me?" testing calls. Almost all communications >I observed in AG are done in a very formal way: they are pre-scheduled >with AG Schedule (I counted 2019 such scheduled events from September 1999 >to February 2003). Hence, AG users (not node operators) usually come to a >node at a scheduled time; have their meetings; immediately log off (by >node operators) right after the meetings; and leave. And, by the way, it >seems that real AG users (not node operators) hardly appreciate the >virtual venue metaphor. They simply need to know how to get to that >physical conference room. Only node operators care about virtual venue: >it's their job to know it (by "job" I mean I would not want to know it if >I could). > >Because persistent space and informal communication seem to be very >important concepts in CVE technology, I wonder why they are not being used >in AG. I tried to read and parse huge amount of AG virtual venue log files >in hope of finding any such informal communication done in AG persistent >space. No luck so far. Of course, there are physical room constraints on >unscheduled AG use. With many PIGs up and running, do people have better >chance to casual encounter with each other? Did any of you use AG >informally? How? Considering that we can easily reap the benefits of >persistence in MUD and mailing list, I wonder why we can't do so in AG. Is >this a user problem (for AG-USERS) or a technical problem (for AG-TECH)? > >Thanks for sharing your experience and insight. > >Wenjun > > > ___________________________________________________________ Tom Coffin .......................... tcoffin@ncsa.uiuc.edu --- end of quote ---